Well, THIS Certainly Ups the Stakes….

Over the last couple of weeks, there have been reports from interviews with Donald Trump that should give any sentient being pause: in one, it became embarrassingly clear that he had never heard of the GI Bill; in another, challenged on his ability to push through a constitutional amendment to stop women from giving birth to all those “anchor babies,” he responded–wrongly– that birthright citizenship wasn’t in the constitution. (“It just takes a statute.”)

The Donald’s most recent policy pronouncement, however, is far more terrifying. As a number of media outlets are reporting, Trump says that if he is elected he will pull out of the Paris climate agreement and approve the Keystone pipeline.

Donald Trump, the presumptive Republican presidential nominee, said on Thursday that he would pull the United States out of the U.N. global climate accord and slash environmental regulations on the energy industry if elected…

“We’re going to cancel the Paris climate agreement,” Trump said at the Williston Basin Petroleum Conference in Bismark, the capital of North Dakota, the second largest U.S. oil-producing state. It was Trump’s first speech detailing the energy policies he would advance from the White House.

Trump said he would invite TransCanada to reapply to build the Keystone XL pipeline from Canada to the United States, reversing a decision by the administration of President Barack Obama to block the project over environmental concerns.

“I want it built, but I want a piece of the profits,” Trump said. “That’s how we’re going to make our country rich again.”

Trump is on record (not that being on record means anything in his case, since he changes his positions more often than most people change their underwear–but still) as repeatedly saying that climate change is a hoax. Whether he believes that or not, the policies he is promising to pursue are all based upon the increased use of fossil fuel and the rollback of regulations on energy.

As Ed Brayton wryly observed over at Dispatches from the Culture Wars, it may simply be another rather breathtaking exhibition of Trump’s hypocrisy:

Now remember, he said this literally two days after it was revealed that his company has applied to build a high sea wall at one of his golf courses in Scotland in order to protect the property from the rising seas resulting from global warming. So he knows damn well that global warming is real and has serious consequences. But he’s more than willing to screw over pretty much the entire world in order to get elected. Speaks volumes about the man, don’t you think?

At the end of the day, however, what Trump actually thinks (assuming, in the absence of evidence, that he actually does engage in that activity) is irrelevant. He is promising that on his watch, America will pursue policies having the foreseeable consequence of making the planet largely uninhabitable.

If his misogyny, racism, xenophobia, narcissism and profound ignorance about our government haven’t given Americans reason enough to insure that he never, ever gets near the Oval Office, this should do it…..

57 thoughts on “Well, THIS Certainly Ups the Stakes….

  1. After Democratic Presidential Candidate Adlai Stevenson finished remarks, a woman gushed, “Surely every intelligent American will have to vote for you.” He replied, “Madame, I need a Majority.” Let’s not underestimate American stupidity.

  2. Sheila,

    “If his misogyny, racism, xenophobia, narcissism and profound ignorance about our government haven’t given Americans reason enough to insure that he never, ever gets near the Oval Office, this should do it…..”

    You are the eternal optimist.

  3. Reason is not involved where DT supporters are concerned. They dismiss his rants by saying, as one woman in Florida who was interviewed by NPR as she left the voting precinct, “He doesn’t really mean it. He just says it to get elected.” !!!!!
    You cannot present any evidence of his many character flaws and narcissistic tendencies as they will all be deflected by the contention that it is 1) all lies made up by the liberal media (Is there such a thing anymore?), 2) he is a successful business man/billionaire so must be too smart to fail at governing if elected, 3) the other party is worse (!?!?!), 4) he says what he thinks, not worrying about being politically correct, or last, but not least, 5) the PEOPLE have elected him in the primaries and we all know that he will make American great again (richer?) and bomb the hell out of ISIS.
    As stated, reason has no relevance to DT supports. They are blinded by their bigotry and self-interest. They are the perfect “suckers” Mr. Barnum so succinctly described as being born every minute and ripe for the picking. And pick, DT will.

  4. The crazies love every syllable AND will vote for Trump. If the electorate passively “sits this one out” the vacuum will be filled by the newly-awakened mob he speaks to.

  5. Holding an intelligent conversation (that means both people talking and listening) with Donald Trump is like trying to explain the theory of relativity to your dog. Your dog will actually listen to you while trying to understand what the hell you are talking about. Trump is formulating his response as you speak, it doesn’t always concern the subject your were talking about, but he will have a response ready…if he doesn’t interrupt you before you finish speaking.

    I will say again; Trump’s supporters scare me much more than he does, they number in the millions so we are surrounded by them. He is but one. Beyond here there be dragons!

  6. It should concern everyone in this country, like it concerns people all over the world, but the whole point of Donald Trump’s campaign is that we just don’t care. Our watchword is ignorance.

  7. I am increasingly concerned that Democrats, like Republicans will underestimate both Trump and the inability of Clinton or Sanders to temper their fight. The internet has taken over the narrative and hate speech at the speed of light serves no one well but the destructive edges.

    Worse, long time friends, sensing, I don’t know what, an opportunity to vote for what they perceive to be an honest man are all too willing to apply standards to Hillary Clinton they’d not apply to themselves or to nearly anyone they know. — my God- her daughter married money- my God she’s a warmonger- etc. after which the counter drives them into such a corner they may not get out.
    Yesterday Bernie played the fear card – he’s terrified the Democratic Party may elect a Democrat. Terrified.

    It seems to me the generational divide is even more intense than the ideological one. If you weren’t fully adult by the time of the Clinton administration you easily believe every corruption charge. You may have grown up in a single mother/divorced household or never really had a respite from the extraordinarily developed – Hate Clinton – that plays like backstory in your life. If a long time lefty leaner you may not but still remain vulnerable to idealistic promises without any basis for passage and demonization of what seems to be an old story of half measures. Despite history to the contrary. Even SCOTUS has no sway.

    I worry that the antipathy toward the boomers as wayward gluttons who eat every resource on their way out leaving debt and falling standards of living behind is undermining every message sent.

    It’s painful to watch and I’m no longer able to ignore the niggling feeling that this is a repeat of the spring – inept candidates and media so fascinated with the Trump train wreck they may as well be hypnotized.

    Finally I worry that while watching, the over 55-60-80 crowd may simply not have sufficient urgency to act, isolated in comfortable patterns, generally able to cope with the status quo and busy with end of career, retirement adjustment, health, or energy deficits, as well as a false belief that some things every generation has to learn for itself will immobilize the vast majority from exerting effort enough.

    It’s a miserable feeling unabated by reason or statistics. I sincerely hope I’m wrong. I’m loathe to mention it yet unable to refrain.

  8. The Donald will say whatever pops into his head at the moment and anything his base will like. I’ve talked with two Trump supporters ( not at the same time in the last week. They both claim Hillary is a murderer. When asked how they knew that, they responded they’d done lots of research on the Internet. One couldn’t say what he looked at. The other cited rightwing webpsites. The Donald feeds the conspiracy theories out there.

  9. Al,

    “It’s a miserable feeling unabated by reason or statistics. I sincerely hope I’m wrong. I’m loathe to mention it yet unable to refrain.”

    Don’t feel so bad. You’re not wrong. Speaking out the truth like you’re doing is the ONLY remedy against the “bat-shit crazy” Donald Trump and the “Tea Party” movement which he has captured from the likes of the Koch Brothers and the Bush Family.

    This same thing happened in Germany in the 30’s when the INDUSTRIALIST CAPITALIST lost their financial control of Adolph Hitler and the Nazi Party.

  10. Sorry, I meant INDUSTRIAL not industrialist. INDUSTRIAL as compared with FINANCIAL. There’s a big difference. For example, the failed OCCUPY MOVEMENT concentrated only on the financial capitalist on Wall Street. Consequently, just like similar movements in Germany in the 30’s, that movement was doomed from the beginning.

  11. “No one in this world, so far as I know — and I have searched the records for years, and employed agents to help me — has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people. Nor has anyone ever lost public office thereby.” – H.L. Mencken

  12. I would suggest an excellent read on the above subject would be “Germany Big Business & The Rise Of Hitler,” by Henry Ashby Turner, Jr., Oxford University Press, New York, 1985.

  13. This is scary stuff. And if Trump weren’t enough evidence of staggering ignorance or worse, in Indiana’s 3rd Congressional District the nominee is a homeless, unkempt confessed substance abuser who won the primary as a Trump supporter! How is this possible you ask? Simple: 3rd District leadership simply didn’t do a damned thing to promote the one good candidate in the primary. In my view our problem is a combination of Republican crazies and Democrat lazies. Pitiful!

  14. Here is a link to research about why facts do not change people’s minds in the political arena. I am relatively new to reading your blog so it my have been referenced before. Though the research is nowhere close to uplifting, It does help me at times to avoid going to viscously judgemental DT land about him and his followers.


    Thanks for all you write and do Sheila.

  15. Oops! In the above post it should say DEMOCRAT nominee. That’s right folks–DEMOCRAT!
    Sorry. I’m shouting.

  16. Trump has destroyed any dignity associated with political office with his mindless bluster and pretense to power, from president through township trustee. Much if not most of what he says he will do he cannot do as they are beyond the reach of executive order. He doesn’t seem to recognize that there are two other organs of government besides the executive who are involved in governing. The man says anything he pleases to curry favor with his audiences and definitely will not make America great again – quite the contrary – some are predicting a depression if he is elected. I confess I don’t know how to corral a terminal narcissist-bully; the rant continues in the face of reason and experience and history. I am only left with the voting booth, and you can be assured I will use that last ditch means to avoid political catastrophe.

  17. While I wholeheartedly agree with Stevenson’s, (and Mencken’s), observations about American stupidity, I don’t think most of my fellow Trump haters understand populist movements.
    There’s a distinct irony of those who are shocked by Trump’s promise to revive Keystone XL, while also dismissing Sanders supporters. Apparently these faux progressives are as ignorant of Hillary’s support for Keystone and fracking as Trump supporters are in regards to other policy matters.

  18. The Democratic Party needs to get their shit (sorry) together or Trump is going to win by a landslide. That man is going to wreck the US and the world with his crap.

  19. Bone chilling as the thought is, I predict Trump in a near-landslide in November. Why? Because fear, hate, and ingnorance may very well be the easiest thing in the world you can sell. Look how far it’s already gotten him! He’s barely trying at this point and as predicted the establishment Republicans sure got over their differences fast and got behind him. Truth be told, I don’t believe for a second they really ever disliked him. It just took them awhile to realize he’s their ideal candidate. Every time you find yourself saying, “surely they wouldn’t” stop and realize, “yes they would.” Reason is less a part of the game than ever, perception is all that matters. I fear we’ll lose the country all together in the process. Meanwhile our ONLY hope is turning the House and Senate blue, but that’s not being talked about. And I might add that’s true regardless of who wins the presidency. Folks, this election is for the future of our Republic, not merely a president.

  20. While it is clear that there are many Americans who let their TVs do their homework and who consider what goes on in Hollywood as important and who can be sold anything and everything by a slick presentation or preacher, we have always been saved from them by the simple fact that they leave voting to others.

    At the moment Things look bleak because we have two Democrats and one “Republican ” in the running and it’s now a race for press coverage.

    I have just enough confidence in most of us and in the concept of Democracy to remain optimistic that the combination will ultimately choose survival.

    Facts are as persistent as opinions are cheap temporary fleeting dreams of a world molded like clay into what’s best for people like me.

    All of the folks who believe they are a step above those who don’t vote, but only vote (R) or (D) proving otherwise, will.

    Then ultimately the others in line who make the effort to vet the facts will decide our future.

    They won’t choose between (R) and (D) but between progress and despair and that’s the beauty of Democracy.

    Facts and reality are the rules of the game of life. Ignore them and there’s a penalty imposed by the Universe. There have been times in history when we’ve taken and quickly regretted the penalty so it’s up to those of us who know reality to advertise it and get all of those capable of understanding it informed.

    We will because that’s who we are.

  21. AgingLGrl; no “sorry” needed. Old Russian proverb; “Do not stir shit with stick, it will cause stink!”

    Trump has been stirring shit with a very large stick and we just may be stuck with his stink because you are 100% correct with your warning. When I see “Trump” yard signs in my small neighborhood where NO yard signs have ever appeared in the 11 years I have lived here, that is a good indication of the support he has from people uninterested in voting before. I do know those on my street are Catholic Republicans; no nothing about the other residents with Trump signs.

    I noticed a strange, small red car stop in front of my house yesterday; before I could see who the driver was or what they were doing, they pulled up to my next door neighbor who has the only other “Bernie 2016” sign in the area and stopped briefly. Couldn’t see the driver from that angle but…I have become paranoid since Trump’s takeover.

  22. JoAnn,

    “I have become paranoid since Trump’s takeover.”

    You’re not paranoid. The Trump supporters in Jacksonville are already out on major street corners with their “Support Trump” signs. Where is the opposition? Nowhere to be found.

    As I said a week or so ago, at the rate we’re going, it will all be over before the Democratic and Republican Conventions in July.

  23. Reality is that the more fossil fuels we burn the higher the atmospheric concentration of greenhouse gases will be. The higher the atmospheric concentration of greenhouse gases is the more energy returning to the Universe after it’s short stay here will be restricted. The harder it is for energy to leave the warmer it will be here. All of that is indisputable.

    It seems every night now the national news leads with a catastrophic weather story. Millions of dollars in damage and many lives lost and we haven’t yet reached the stage where more of our valuable land is uninhabitable because it’s under water.

    While the El Nino/La Nina cycle changes the details over a decade or so all of the news is bad, just differently bad as the Pacific does what it does.

    It will take decades to change our global energy system to sustainable and every day over those decades we’ll make our climate less hospitable to civilization.

    Nothing but the facts ma’am.

    There is no opinion in any of that just reporting on how the Universe works.

    Donald Trump believes that he can bully the Universe into submission to his will.

    Ask the family whose home just got tornadoed into the next county with their kids in it how submissive nature is.

  24. We need to shoulder much of the blame for Donald Trump’s rise to FAME. He already had his FORTUNE. What did we expect next?

    Remember……”In the Land of the Blind, the one-eyed man is king”
    [In regione caecorum rex est luscus.]
    ~Desiderius Erasmus
    Dutch author, philosopher, and scholar (1466-1536)

  25. We need to distinguish between a “friendly democratic coup” and a “friendly democratic election” before it will be too late to do anything about it.

    Professor Bertram Russell warned us about all this in “Friendly Fascism,” South End Press, Boston, 1980.

    From “Friendly Fascism” page xiii

    Evil is no faceless stranger
    living in a distant neighborhood.
    Evil has a wholesome, hometown face,
    with merry eyes and an open smile.
    Evil walks among us, wearing a mask
    which looks like all our faces.
    The Book of Counted Sorrows

    A naught, a liar, a devil or dunce—
    Could he possibly be all at once?

    “This is best thing I’ve seen on how America might go fascist democratically. Friendly Fascism offers a very clear exposition of where America is, and how we got there.”
    William Shirer author of “Berlin Diary”

  26. One explanation of Trump’s rise in notoriety is that he’s a know nothing talking to know nothing’s. Of course they get it. There’s nothing to get.

    He is a reality TV star living like most of them in an unreal world.

    All of that is of course his and their prerogative. They can live in whatever fantasy they can dream.

    We just can’t allow them to do anything based on those dreams.

  27. You people are the reason(s) why so many are defecting from the Democratic Party. You’re the reason why Trump will win. The petite bourgeoisie (which also includes a large portion of former Republicans) has spent an inordinate amount of time self aggrandizing and claiming to be the smartest kids in the room. So what is your answer? You apply propaganda to the Republican nominee that can easily be applied to Clinton,as well. The current political milieu has been reduced to nothing more than schoolyard insults–mostly by those who think of themselves as enlightened. Moreover,Clinton has said a lot of stupid things. Giving Nancy Reagan credit for bringing Aids to the forefront. Remember Thug Predators? Her phony claim of being fired upon? This list is almost endless. Is Trump a misogynist? Absolutely. Is Joe Biden a misogynist? Absolutely,look how he treated Anita Hill–of course “Unca” Joe gets a free pass among Democrats. Also,this crazed fear of Trump is starting to look a bit more like anti-German sentiment . Vilifying people for their ethnicity is BS. No different in tone than when folks were accusing Obama of being a Muslim Manchurian candidate. Same empty argument really. Trump is Hitler–Obama is a Muslim. Obama is the AntiChrist!!!!

    I don’t like right-wing nutjobs. Especially of the narcissistic variety. This is why I will not vote for Trump or Clinton. The demagoguery is thick with both of them—Especially amongst Clinton’s sycophants.Genuine progressives would not vote for either one. If you really want to place blame as to whom is responsible for a candidate such as Trump,look no further than your mirror,the Democratic Party and Bill & Hillary Clinton.

  28. Pete,

    “We just can’t allow them to do anything based on those dreams.”

    Our only chance is to convince them that those dreams will only turn into nightmares as was the case with the dreams of the Germans in the 30’s. German military intelligence, not the SS, tried to wake the country up as early as 1938, but by then it was already too late. They couldn’t stop the nightmare that would be their future.

  29. William of course wants Trump to win but hopes to accomplish that by attacking everyone who could beat him. I suppose not a bad strategy even if devious – especially when everyone knows how unqualified Trump is.

    He’s probably a vote (R) under all circumstances guy who just doesn’t want to ever question why.

    Of course that makes him like most Americans distinguishable only by letter.

    The good thing is that the (R)s will be canceled by the (D)s leaving the open minded to decide.

    However the open minded don’t deny science so know what’s at stake here because of fossil fuel waste being dumped into our one atmosphere by the gigaton.

    It took a log time to build civilization adapted to the climate that humanity has always enjoyed. Paying fossil fuel companies to change the climate away from what we built to into something that requires a different civilization is just not something that we can afford to do. Whether we are (R)s or (D)s.

  30. Pete,you underscore my thoughts expressed. For someone that has claimed in previous posts to be a proponent for debate,all I see coming from you is ad hominem,stream of conscientious bloviating,willful misinterpretation of comments from others and self righteous pontificating. Frankly,you’re the socially inept bore at the party everyone ignores. Perhaps someday you’ll come down from that hit of microdot you took decades ago?

    You people just can’t believe you’re part of the problem. Just like your favored candidate. Now,we see the masks come off. You people have spent so much time and years dismissing people from the other side of the aisle you can’t help yourselves. Now,you’re attacking genuine progressive supporters that refuse to bow to your idea of party unity. I’m not voting Trump. All you’ve got is accusing me of being a Trump supporter. That accusation really shows how receptive to empty rhetoric ,platitudes and canards you people have been willing to swallow. And,how you’ve got nothing. Your bubble is bursting and you refuse to look at the reason(s) why.

    Bernie or Bust!

  31. Yikes! I need an editor!

    A sentence in my previous post should read;” stream of conscience bloviating.”

  32. Marv, what you say is true but the minds of “true believers” just can’t be changed. Even when Rev Jones said drink this just because I want you to die with me the “true believers” said yes.

    Fortunately we don’t need a majority to accept fact over fiction because the “true believers” in (R) will be held in check by the believers in (D).

    We just need the open minded to fulfill their role in ascertaining fact vs fiction, what they want to do; they don’t need to be in any way coerced, just informed.

  33. Don’t you just love it when some folks start their comments with “you people” and continue to use that offensive expression throughout their comments? That’s awful!

    ALG, please don’t apologize for a less-than-dignified word or two. Sometimes, that word and others are a perfect fit.

    That ol’ boy just ain’t the one for the job! He’s “all hat and no cattle”. With Putin rattling his sword in the last day or so, I don’t want to think of DT having access to security briefings (Richard Clarke explained why) or anything else concerning our well-being.

  34. William: “bust” is not a candidate. Reality says the choice will be Donald or Hillary. Unqualified vs qualified. A no brainer to those who want a future for our grandchildren as good as we’ve had it.

    Democracy will make that decision and we will have once again earned our freedom.

    Brrnie will always be my hero. Just very unlikely to be my President. Reality again insisting that we pay attention to her.

  35. Finally something Trump said that I agree with. Though I would point out on the Keystone Pipeline he expects the company to pay a bribe to the government.

  36. The only real climate change question left is can free markets under the current regulation get us off dumping fossil fuel waste into the atmosphere before adapting civilization to the new climate so created becomes an unaffordable tax load. The current answer is no. More regulation is required.

    Business will let us know when we reach enough.

  37. Paul; why don’t you contact Keystone Pipeline and offer your yard for their line. You might want to check with your neighbors to see if they agree.

  38. William it is Bernie for me too. There was the Manchurian Candidate – Hillary is the Compromised Candidate. The latest E-Mail flap is just one more, explanation she has to make. This seems to be Clinton Family Trait, miss-spoke, clarifications, etc, etc., etc.

    When Hillary Clinton’s son-in-law, Marc Mezvinsky sought funding for his new hedge fund in 2011, he found financial backing from one of the biggest names on Wall Street: Goldman Sachs chief executive Lloyd Blankfein. Mezvinsky, who married Chelsea in 2010, previously worked at Goldman Sachs. Yes, the same Goldman-Sachs that paid Hillary $675,000 in speaking fees. You can read the whole story https://theintercept.com/2016/05/27/hillary-clinton-wont-say-how-much-goldman-sachs-ceo-invested-with-her-son-in-law/

    Now, we read and see and hear all over the McMega-Media those of us who will not vote for $hillary or Trump will create Bush v Gore 2. Sorry Gore lost that one on his own. Gore was thoroughly indistinguishable from Bush it was a close election.

  39. Louie, I hear and understand every word you wrote! My response will not employ a bunch of philosophical or faux political mumbo jumbo or be a word salad.

    Despite his obvious loose cannon tendencies, the Republican party now has aligned itself with Trump as its candidate in 2016. That’s a given, and there’s no need for Democrats to continue bashing Trump. He’s the Republican candidate and that’s not going to change.

    Rather than dwelling on Trump, the Democrats better be dwelling on who will be their candidate, Sanders or Clinton. Seems that the New Democrat establishment wants Clinton; however, the non-establishment Sanders Democrats, those expressing a strong desire for returning to the Democrat roots of being the party of the people, are not willing to give up and roll over for the Clinton supporters and for the DNC’s heiress apparent, Clinton.

    The Clinton-Sanders split in the Democrat party is not going to simply vanish because folks don’t wish to discuss it in a public forum. For me, it’s as plain as the nose on my face, that folks no longer are enthralled with political dynasties, as in Clinton or Bush.

  40. Some people got ugly when I stated on Facebook that Hillary is Donald Trump in drag. I will still feel forced to vote for her if Bernie does not get the nomination the American people are seeking. The anger and fear is kept alive by conflicting media reports on all aspects of this election…except regarding Trump being the Republic presumptive nominee and they seem to revel in that outcome. The delegate question continues to surface after too many Democratic primaries to be ignored. We have been inundated with Hillary’s E-mail issue for more than a year; it comes and it goes, the numbers change, the situation regarding the single-server hasn’t been resolved. And the beat goes on! American politics are circling the bowl and Trump has his hand on the flush handle.

  41. I will never comprehend the either Bernie or Donald movement. They are almost polar opposites. Hillary is in between.

  42. “Political dynasties”.

    In the case of the Bushes; Presidential father and son and Governor son.

    In the case of the Clintons Presidential husband and wife with Presidential aspirations.

    In what ways does that make them the same?

    They both have relatives by blood or marriage interested in similar careers.


    How are they different?

    Night and day. Liberal vs conservative. About as diverse as worldviews and politics get.

    Which factor deserves our attention? What’s the same about them or what’s different?

    I know many families that follow in the same career footsteps. Nothing remarkable at all about that.

    But the difference between liberal and conservative is the most fundamental difference in the mindset of those who operate government.

    Which factor deserves our attention? Seems an obvious choice for me.

  43. Hi Louie.

    I’ve purposely avoided the e-mail imbroglio. But since you’ve brought it up,It is amazing when one thinks about it. Clinton has made a much stronger effort in keeping the content of her e-mails from the public than the effort given to keeping them from being hacked. I’m supposed to believe from the true believers those efforts should be lauded ? Nevermind her efforts to hide the contents of her six- figure- hour- long speeches given to Goldman Sachs,et al. I’m supposed to believe Goldman et al are simply benevolent benefactors and expect nothing in return from Hillary?

    Frankly,when I read/hear comparisons of Trump to Hitler ,I just can’t take such sentiments seriously. Especially when there were no such descriptions given to Jeb Bush. I can’t think of a single instance of Trump being as fascistic as Bush was wrt to Terry Schiavo debacle.

    As I’ve stated in a previous post in another thread,the voters have evolved while the establishment,the bobble-heads,pundits,apparatchiks,the parties and true believers have not.

    I might even start referring to Hillary as Imelda Peron!

  44. “Clinton has made a much stronger effort in keeping the content of her e-mails from the public than the effort given to keeping them from being hacked.”

    I thought the purpose of confidential communication was to “the content of e-mails from the public”.

  45. Pete,

    “Marv, what you say is true but the minds of “true believers” just can’t be changed. Even when Rev Jones said drink this just because I want you to die with me the “true believers” said yes.”

    Then, why are you trying to change William? I’d suggest saving your energy for more worthwhile pursuits.

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